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Tue Oct 01 2019, 02:17a.m.

Registered Member #1
Joined: Mon Feb 18 2008, 02:12a.m.

Posts: 1175
Just a quick response that I'll try to elaborate on later regarding the recent flurry of trading.
I haven't done any comparisons but it seems to me that we have had a major uptick in deadline trading
with teams publicly announcing that they are giving up on the season. That concerns me because I prefer a
competitive league that emphasizes parity whereas the KRFL is beginning to resemble the trade happy NHL as playoffs near.
Jeff from Salem has recently posted the same worry that there just aren't any incentives for a mediocre team to
try to win. I think we need to address this during the next rules period but there's no reason we can't get the conversation going now.

As a group, we've recognized that Jeff's worry is a problem and have moved the in-season trading deadline from week 8 to week 4.
We've also cut the in-season salary cap in half from $10 to $5m. Those were good moves but clearly weren't enough so I think we
need to discuss some proposed solutions as well as invite other ideas.

For now I've logged the following proposals from members:

1. Eliminate all in-season trading.
2. Set an in-season salary cap floor (i.e., no team can have less than $70m in salary).
3. Rework the draft order so that the most successful non-playoff teams get the higher picks.

Everyone's thoughts are encouraged so please take a couple minutes to get the conversation going.

On a related note, I agree with the commish that no one should be able to trade rookie draft picks more than one
year in advance. As a Commissioner alumni, I was always worried about recruiting new owners after the inevitable resignation.
(Fortunately, we have an admirably stable membership). Trying to entice someone to take over a (usually losing) team
is hard enough but when you tack on the loss of rookie draft picks over a year or two or three the task becomes especially difficult.
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Tue Oct 01 2019, 08:39a.m.
Mark Blume

Registered Member #81
Joined: Mon Oct 14 2013, 08:54a.m.

Posts: 1201
Thanks for posting this Steve. I agree, though I suppose KRFL is simply mimicking the NFL (Cleveland Browns are the most recent example). I agree with your post except the elimination of trading. I think with some other changes we should continue to have a trading period.
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Tue Oct 01 2019, 12:28p.m.
Registered Member #25
Joined: Sun Sep 07 2008, 10:07p.m.

Posts: 595
Yes, I have been talking about this for years - but pretty ignored on the subject. No incentive for me to win, so I am doing the best I can do make my team as good as possible for the future. If I had any incentive to win, I would not be trading away all these players. Or...there would be some sort of penalty (or not reaping the benefits) of having a really bad team.

[ Edited Tue Oct 01 2019, 12:34p.m. ]
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Tue Oct 01 2019, 06:20p.m.
Registered Member #23
Joined: Fri Sep 05 2008, 07:23p.m.

Posts: 431
I wasn’t going to say anything but decided too before more come out bashing people for trading or trying to help their future. I would completely disagree with this opinion on almost every aspect of it.

First off I believe there are less than 10 deals the trade deadline week which is very light for any league. There have been years were I made 5-6 alone in my leagues.

When you accuse people of tanking it can be construed as cheating or losing games on purpose. I completely disagree that is going on in the league and you shouldn’t handicap an owner who realizes they have no shot this year to better their chances for next year. It happens in real life leagues and happens in every other league I have ever played in or hear about. Though it is perfectly fine not too, actually the other side of the fence of sitting tight and getting nothing for your players I would be quicker to question if you really care for the long term or are trying to win at some point and truthfully that keeps the bottom teams down more than the trading keeps the better teams on top because the better teams are always hurting their chances for the next season giving up the future picks, cheaper players under contract and younger players with upside but if they don’t I would estimate at least half of those teams will make the playoffs again the following season. If you take the time to read below I think you can understand my argument where the lack of trading, cramping of the rules by pushing up the deadline and cap space actually hurts the bottom teams more than the top ones.

For instance Jeff, has done a great job of knowing when he isn’t in the hunt and stock piling for the next year and winning it that year. Why should an owner not be allowed to do that? The number your pick is also so over-rated in these leagues. Yes for the first round, the top 10 picks are better for that year but it isn’t where you pick but who you pick that matters since ratings change every year. The NFL GM’s make bad picks all the time and that is their job. Of course we are going too as well with less info they have and then through in the injury factors it changes too. The RG III, Kaepernick and others of the NFL were great picks for 1-2 years but people picking lower got a lot more usage out of others they drafted so pick number is irrelevant over the course of a career. This is without the luck factor of when your player gets a chance, stays healthy or anything along those lines.

Keep in mind this is a unique league with the rules of having players under contracts so you tend to see trades here that you wouldn’t see because you can’t hold players for ever and the superstars are sometimes priced out of the market by salary and guys having down years no one wants because they get killed in cap space. I don’t know of any other league where Rodgers, Brady, Brees, etc have been on over 5 franchises if I had to make a guess. I have Brady in another league for well over 10 years but here there is a year with an incentive to trade him. When those players are traded here rarely it is a deal any owner would make in a straight keeper league value wise. Always tend to be lower here.
I have been in this league for longer than I can remember and this used to be one of my favorite leagues (I am in many across different sports and run a few myself) but lately it isn’t because it is so hard to trade. There are only two parts of fun in any league these days as the live interaction and true friendships are gone since everything is over the internet. You have roster management and playing games. Now we want to take one part of that out of the equation where you can only trade before your roster is set because cut downs? That is ludicrous.

I think this league lost a lot of the fun for myself and sure some other owners when not only was the trading decreased to week 4 but the in season cap inexcusable lowered by $5M. I am sure a lot of the owners will formulate an opinion without doing any research but I generally am trading for upgrades the last few years and it has become virtually impossible to improve your team by more than 2-3 players no matter how much you are willing to give because of the extra $5M vs. $10M in season cap space handcuffs you.

For example I looked at about 10 potential trade partners last week. I came up with only 2 teams to email with upgrades and got a late minor deal because an owner put out players I didn’t think he was dealing. I am fairly creative with these moves and had nothing to send out. Here is the reason why.
1. There are no more middle tear players for the most part under expiring contracts, you have cheap guys no one is trading. For some reason this has basically become extinct.
2. The higher priced rentals are $8-10M and with only $5M to work with hard to fit them onto your roster
3. The draft has completely evolved over the years where some other 10 year veterans can correct me if wrong but I recall maybe 3-4 $10M players picked and maybe another 6-8 at most having money in the $7.5M rounds and now there could be 10 players taken in the $10M round alone plus most teams make a $7.5M pick. The money has become very top heavy
4. You have a lot of bad contracts and to have to give up to a future and get stuck next year with the money isn’t worth it. To be honest there are some teams out of contention who should pay a top team to get rid of a contract so they are better next year not having to pay the guy.
When you have players offered like Von Miller in which any contending team everyone would have an interest (I know I am dying for a pass rusher) but I wouldn’t be surprised if no one made an offer because you don’t have a $5M LB to include back there is an issue. Now current argument is it hurts the good teams but no you have a team that feels he can’t make the playoff limiting his chance of getting 2-4 picks and players for him that would bulk up his roster next year and is sitting with $40M on the cap next year and is hard pressed to even hold onto him if he wants to keep cheaper players.

You can even go one step further to a guy with an 8 expiring non franchise eligible gets zero. That hurts a bad team more than helping a good team.

So the good teams didn’t lose assets by not trading for these players and a non playoff team didn’t gain assets for their rental players so it helps the better team more than the bottom teams because the better teams are better this year and more often than not have a better starting base next year because they held their assets. So to keep thinking the rich are getting richer is incorrect and we are greatly limiting a team’s ability to get a return on their investment of pick if forced to basically eat a player after the season with the contract rules we have. Again this isn’t your normal draft league where the players are yours for life if you don’t want to trade them and basically everyone is a rental player on your roster.

I would clearly like to see the trade deadline pushed back to at least week 6 to give every a feel if a contender or not and put back the $10M to play with. If teams trade wisely this will help parity of the league much quicker than the way some are pushing to reduce things thinking without any examples of why this is hurting parity of the league for the next season.
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Tue Oct 01 2019, 11:20p.m.
Mark Blume

Registered Member #81
Joined: Mon Oct 14 2013, 08:54a.m.

Posts: 1201
Thanks for a thoughtful post Cliff. Any and all input is helpful.
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Wed Oct 02 2019, 02:07a.m.

Registered Member #1
Joined: Mon Feb 18 2008, 02:12a.m.

Posts: 1175
Cliff, thanks for your thoughtful response. I think it helps put into clear contrast two different visions of what
would be best for the league. I'll be very interested to hear what others have to say. For myself, I'm not in favor of
lessening the trade constraints we have in place but I hear loud and clear that you would prefer even more trading and
that you think the league is worse off for the rule changes we've recently made.

What bothers me is that after just a couple games we've had a half dozen teams already announce that they don't expect
to win and are selling out for the future. Given our system, that makes perfect sense as a strategy. You might quibble as
to whether or not that should be called "tanking," but in effect that is what it is. That brings me to ask if there is
anything we can do to adjust that system to disincentivize "tanking" and make the league more competitive from top to bottom.
My goal would be a league where in week twelve most teams still have a puncher's chance of making the playoffs and
competing beyond. I think there is a lot to be said for parity and I'd happily encourage any ideas that would promote that aim.

I thought I'd add up some numbers so I'm not just talking out my butt. (Jeff (Salem) has also done some figuring
and has numbers about team records from year to year that I invite him to post.) In-season trading in the KRFL this year amounted to
11 trades involving 42 players and 9 future rookie draft picks. In comparison, in-season trading in the NFL in 2018 involved
just 11 players and 14 draft picks. Granted that the KRFL and the NFL are different beasts but the comparison tells me something is
out of whack. What I'd hate to see is the KRFL become like the NHL where 81 players and 33 draft picks were traded in February 2018 alone.

[ Edited Wed Oct 02 2019, 02:08a.m. ]
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Wed Oct 02 2019, 12:53p.m.
Registered Member #45
Joined: Wed May 05 2010, 11:29p.m.

Posts: 642
I think I would get ride of in season trading all together. Or at least try it out. It sure would make things simpler.
I know this is not popular but I thought I would put it out there.
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Thu Oct 03 2019, 12:09p.m.

Set an in-season salary cap floor (i.e., no team can have less than $70m in salary).

Would this be the Action PC-assigned salary or are we talking about our own salaries? In other words, is Deshaun Watson's salary 11,929 (his game value), or 1,250 (his KRFL salary)?

I would hate to see a situation where teams are, like in the NBA, trading away "dead contracts" to bad teams just to maintain their salary floor.
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Thu Oct 03 2019, 12:29p.m.
Registered Member #32
Joined: Mon Apr 06 2009, 09:59p.m.

Posts: 434
I have no problem with the way it is currently with a week 4 deadline. I have been too busy to deal with trades. This year would have been a good one for Seattle to trade away players on their last year for the future. I've never liked the shift of power in season where teams can get one year studs for a minimal cost. Unlike real leagues we already know their stats and injuries so comparing our leagues with the pro leagues are not the same. That is why I like the early trade deadline and wouldn't support a later one.
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Thu Oct 03 2019, 04:01p.m.
Registered Member #25
Joined: Sun Sep 07 2008, 10:07p.m.

Posts: 595
I will always believe there should be a choice. I am fine if teams want to trade all their good players away - but it should come with a cost.

Right now, the decision was easy for me. I didn't have a good enough team to win it all this year. I don't think I would make the playoffs. What is the point of finishing 7-9. Now I will have a much worse record, which means a much better draft pick slot. Easy decision for me to make.

Now, if losing a bunch of games came at a cost ( worse FA draft slot, a few million less in the draft, or something like that) then its a much harder decision to make. If there was a benefit to finish 7-9 (and I have argued that changing the draft order would do that) then I wouldn't have sold off my good players. There is zero reason to be a mediocre team in this league. You want to be either really good or really bad. I will always believe that is what needs to change.
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